Seeing the Unseen, Building Second Chances | Norma Jaeger

What happens when we choose to truly see someone—not for their past, but for their potential?

In this episode of Pebbles of Light, Anne sits down with Norma Jaeger, Executive Director of Recovery Idaho, to explore the intersection of justice and mercy, the realities of addiction and incarceration, and the quiet power of dignity.

Drawing from decades of experience in substance use treatment, criminal justice reform, and recovery advocacy, Norma shares stories that challenge assumptions and invite deeper understanding. From women leaving incarceration with nothing but the clothes on their backs to moments of profound human connection in treatment courts, this conversation highlights how small acts of recognition can change the trajectory of a life.

Together, Anne and Norma reflect on:

• What it means to “see the unseen”
• The balance between justice and mercy
• The realities of reentry for women after incarceration
• How dignity and belonging shape recovery
• Simple ways we can slow down and notice others

At its core, this episode is a reminder: people are more than the worst thing they’ve done—and being seen can be the beginning of something new.

Resources & Links:

A film that Norma helped produce, “I Married the War” on Amazon - https://amzn.to/4sEEbHD 

Justserve - https://www.justserve.org/ 

Salvation Army - https://www.salvationarmyusa.org/volunteer/ 

St. Vincent de Paul - https://ssvpusa.org/ 

Boise Rescue Mission - https://boiserm.org/get-involved/ 

💛 Support the Show:
If you’d like to support Pebbles of Light, you can do so through Buzzsprout https://www.buzzsprout.com/2593690/support

🎧 Listen to the full ep

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

we we ended up getting a a a grant to help women who found out when they were in jail they were pregnant. Of course, by the time they came out, either they were very far along in their pregnancy or they would have given birth during the time they were incarcerated. And uh that was the first time I realized that women who were taken to the hospital to deliver managed, did that delivery in shackles. And the idea of delivering your baby in shackles. And I remember telling that to a a colleague I I said it like, you know, and we were we were in the dark ages and and we only just did away with that. He said, listen, there are lots of places that haven't done away with that yet.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Welcome to Pebbles of Light where we highlight the everyday people who bring hope, comfort, and light to others. I'm your host, Ann Maxon, sharing meaningful stories to help you find light in your journey. If the messages shared resonate with you, please follow, share, or support the podcast through Patreon to help keep the mic on and spread the light even farther. Hey friends, we are almost at 50 episodes of Pebbles of Light. Can you believe it? I have loved this opportunity to share these stories. And I want to hear from you. At the top of the show notes there's a link that says text or voice message the show. Please reach out and share about someone who's placed a pebble of light in your path. Now on to today's episode Welcome to Pebbles of Light. On our last episode, Michelle Kerr reminded us that meaningful growth doesn't require changing everything at once. That episode's pebble encouraged us to choose one mindset shift and intentionally work on it each day. Today we explore what means to truly see others and how that simple act can change a life. Sometimes the people who change the world are the ones who simply choose to see others and build second chances. Today's guest Norma Jager has spent her life seeing the unseen walking alongside women in recovery, those leaving incarceration and those searching for a second chance. Norma thank you so much for being here please take a moment to introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Well thank you and I am uh I am delighted to be here I I I love to have an opportunity to talk um so I've spent my first public service job was in um my goodness 1967 so that was a long time ago and um I started out kind of in the working in welfare as a caseworker and kind of progressed through that spent some time doing psychiatric social work and ended up because of some strange goings on with the legislature eliminating the job I had ended up in the substance abuse program. And I'd had some connection with that over the years, but had not worked directly in that field until then and took a job that included overseeing a drug and alcohol program. And not too far into that process, I really became very interested in it and found it to be much more complex and much more comprehensive and to have a lot more sort of research even at that time and and really became captivated by it and captured by it and really have spent since then so I don't know how many years that is I don't want to do the math but many years since 1979 working in the drug and alcohol area. And it has never become old and um out of date. I mean it it just continues to grow even until last week spending considerable time interacting with the Idol legislature. So that's kind of how I got there. And because of the involvement with drugs and alcohol I also became involved with services in the criminal justice system when I was then in Portland with work with in the criminal justice system to bring together drug and alcohol treatment, mental health treatment and criminal justice. So that's kind of been my area ever since I had the opportunity to work with the expansion of Idaho's drug courts which grew into mental health courts and eventually kind of our last expansion into veterans specific courts. And those have been very rewarding. Upon retirement in addition to having the opportunity to pursue a PhD which was something I had really always wanted to do also became involved in what we sort of talk about as the recovery end of the drug and alcohol service continuum and now serve as the executive director of a statewide recovery community organization called Recovery Idaho. So that's a that's a a quick overview of my background and areas that I feel very passionate about.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

That's amazing thinking about how much substance abuse and legislation regarding substance abuse has changed since 1979, which is quite a while ago. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

And as well as the ways in which like the accessibility of substances to be abused right well talk about the availability yeah the availability and of course internet drug availability um you know it's hard to even know I don't even know all of the ways in which individuals can obtain drugs via the internet but I'm sure it's it's quite available in that form.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Yeah. Working in pharmacy I've seen this before I I've met with people who come in and I think a lot of times we have in our mind what a drug addict looks like. But in these days this society with the drugs that are available especially thinking about the opiate epidemic and things like that it doesn't choose a specific socioeconomic status or or anything like that. I've met people across the spectrum and people who were very successful and something I remember one particular young man that I talked to and he's like I just went in for shoulder surgery and now I can't function without being able to take these opiates to take away you know this this pain that I deal with if I don't take it. And I've had the opportunity to go to some of the the meetings that you've partnered with to help women re-entering into society after incarceration. And some of them actually I think many of them it was related to drug charges, you know, possession or paraphernalia or things like that. And I remember one particular meeting that we had they had a group of women just kind of a panel of women come and share their stories and talk about why they were incarcerated, if they were repeat offenders, if it was a one-time thing. And as I listened to their stories, I kept thinking of this quote from a book that my kids have read. It's called Land of Stories and it takes fairy tales but tells it from the perspective of the villain and the difficulties the villain has gone through in order to make them who they are and have them act that the way that they do. And there was a quote in that book that says a villain is just a victim whose story hasn't been told and yeah and and meeting with those women and hearing their stories it just helps you understand how they deserve a second chance and and balancing that idea of justice and mercy. So for you what does that that mean? How do you find that balance in in justice and mercy and taking the time to hear their stories gosh what what a great question.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

I remember many many years ago at some kind of a meeting and I was there with one of my colleagues from public health and and I remember saying in that meeting you know your work really lies at the intersection of justice and mercy. And I have always felt that way about the work that I did and the colleagues that I had in treatment courts, particularly in treatment courts because their work was all about it was certainly all about hearing the stories all about listening to how the person got there and where they are now because you know someone who is addicted to drugs has other aspects of their life. They have kids they have jobs they have parents they have siblings they have social connections they have church members that they're I mean so they have many aspects of their lives and there's a there's a great there's a a church actually down the Fairview Avenue drive up and down Fairview. And it started out saying mercy is getting that which you are not entitled to then they switched it to grace is getting what you're not entitled to and mercy is not getting what you are entitled to. And I just thought that was a great so working in treatment courts it's constantly that that um that tension between what people are entitled to you know what they deserved what they earned often with their behavior and what we we try to make available to them despite that. So justice and mercy is the treatment court field. Without doing that the the whole program becomes illegitimate it becomes unsupportable by the by the community and uh it fails to fulfill a significant responsibility of protecting the community at the same time without mercy it becomes truly that blind that blind justice holder um and so mercy is being aware of all the circumstances and taking them into consideration and trying to trying to not only make the the sort of the price match the offense but to to make the price also take into account all of the circumstances. You just hear those stories constantly both the past and and what people are going through in the current moment. So that that's always been and it's been so interesting how judges who do those courts grow into that capability of being able to balance justice and and mercy.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

So for you can you share a story or two about an experience where you saw something and you saw the gaps in support for for women coming out of incarceration and you just had this feeling of we need to do something.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Well I think a great example right now three weeks ago our ward had what they call a linger longer and we haven't done a lot of those when we have typically it's been like you know the iconic thing would be rice crispy treats in the gym people grab one and leave well they had decided they wanted to be a longer linger longer. And so it was a lunch and so a young woman I'm guessing she's in her 30s came in and was sitting at the table I was sitting at with some other members of the church. And shortly after she sat down the woman who had organized it came and sat down beside her. But it came out that this young woman had recently gotten out of prison. She basically left prison with the clothes on her back. That's what she's got. And that is such a not unusual situation. Certainly you mentioned the panel the women some of the women that have come in the past have been from the work release center and they are able to go out and work but they go back to a custodial facility at night. And because they are working then sometimes they're able to save some money. And so when they do get out, you know, they may have enough money for first and last month rent and utility I mean they may have a little bit to get started. But as often I think people coming out with the clothes on their back is no less common than people coming out with a family to go back to a family that may have mixed feelings about them coming back. A family that may have been caring for their children while they're incarcerated. And you know it's such a an unimaginable I think unconscionable thing that Idaho has is the number one per capita rate of incarcerated women. So that means in the United States but when you say in the United States because we have by far the highest incarceration rate in the world Idaho's number one in the world for incarcerating women it's just hard to even wrap your mind around it's like triple the national average of incarcerated women it is I don't know how many times greater than the state of Utah next door. And it's like what in the world is going on and um and a lot of it is very related to drugs and alcohol because because of our laws if if you have a guy who gets picked up for trafficking drugs and when we say trafficking drugs we think about you know major dealers whatever to be convicted of trafficking you don't have to have any evidence at all of selling or distributing drugs only an amount of the drug in your possession that exceeds certain baseline amounts. And so you have a guy who is picked up that way. Let's say his girlfriend is with him it is very likely that she will be convicted as an associate. And so she will be subject to the same mandatory minimum penalty as him. I think that's a piece of why we have the rate of incarceration. We also have a program called retain jurisdiction where the judge can someone can be convicted of and usually it's a drug related offense it may be burglary to or sales to support your own habit but so it may not even have drugs in the the initial part of the charge but it may be stealing it may be shoplifting it may be forgery things like that for the purpose of supporting the drug habit. And so an individual that is convicted in that way can go to what's called a retained jurisdiction program. And in that the judge may believe that there are some services available to the individual and they will give them a brief time six months of retained jurisdiction and depending how they perform during that time then would either come back to the judge and the judge would decide you're going to go on to prison or you're going to go on probation. So that but that counts as incarceration in that period. And that may be a status that is driving some of our incarceration rate. But whatever it is these women when they leave they come out with such strikes against them difficulty getting a job because many employers are not willing to hire someone who has been convicted of a felony and who has served time in prison. Many positive social connections that they may have had may have evaporated during the time they're in prison. Their families may have had to take care of their children and are burdened with that and and also may especially in smaller communities feel shamed because their family member has gone to prison and really in small communities everyone knows everyone's business. So they come out with almost no actual money they may get a 30 day period of transitional housing paid for by the state. However, as one of my colleagues points out if you have 30 days of housing and you get a job two weeks into that time period, you're not going to get a paycheck in time to pay your rent for the next 30 days and typically you will be evicted before you know from that housing who can't who can't keep you without being paid. So it's just so, so difficult. You know I remember one particular case where the woman had one plate, one cup, one set of silverware and she was going to be getting her kids back. She had no beds for the children to sleep on. It's just incredible. And so I I was had lunch with a a colleague who works for correction and said you know I've always thought when I retired I would do something in the area of women's incarceration and women incorrections. And she said oh well you don't have to wait till you retire I I can give you stuff to do now. And so that was you know one of the things that I really got involved in at that point. But even before then when I worked in Portland we had a jail program and we we ended up getting a a grant to help women who found out when they were in jail and so a person could be in jail up to a year found out they were pregnant and so they didn't know they were pregnant when they went in. Of course by the time they came out either they were very far along in their pregnancy or they would have given birth during the time they were incarcerated. And uh that was the first time I realized that women who were taken to the hospital to deliver manage that delivery uh did that delivery in shackles. And the idea of delivering your baby in shackles and I remember coming back to Idaho in 2000 and Idaho was just in the process at that time uh for women who were incarcerated in prison uh I guess in jail I'm not even sure who would not have to deliver in shackles. And I remember t telling that to a a colleague in New York who he said I said it like you know and we were we were in the dark ages and and we only just did away with that he said listen there are lots of places that haven't done away with that yet. So um all the way from the you know the the literature the scarlet letter to women still delivering babies in shackles uh dealing with women who are are facing incarceration is a it's it's just a huge issue. And you talk about you know thinking about the stories how did you how did you first learn this all around me I mean you know all around me just all of these stories plus of course many of the women were victims of domestic violence of sexual assault of childhood sexual abuse you know just terrible terrible victim stories that were ubiquitous just absolutely absolutely there and yeah so that was kind of my introduction I guess and my environment and still is really working with women in recovery now who have managed somehow in ways that are really unimaginable to me to extricate themselves from from those circumstances and struggling continuing to struggle to you know to to beat it if you will to rebuild or sometimes for the first time build a life that is humane that is you know drug free that is crime free respectable as we would think of it I think the the kind of what you're talking about too is to to help them kind of recognize their own divine identity and their divine potential absolutely yeah um you know we we think that we we say those words I remember it wasn't a woman it it was a man I remember giving a presentation once and there was a psychiatrist there and he was from the VA and he talked about a a c a patient of his and said this patient said you know well it's all well and good but I've done things for which I can never be forgiven. I can never be forgiven. And of course we believe in the atonement we believe that virtually anything with the teeny teeny tiniest exceptions can be forgiven and we believe in the power of that forgiveness and of the atonement and of repentance and and to hear someone who is and I know it's not unusual and I think many of the women feel that way that that that they are truly damaged goods.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

They can never be forgiven but they may be able to kind of um pay back in part but never in the whole um so yeah reminds me a little bit of an experience I had on my mission we taught a young man who I mean he was probably in his mid-twenties and the first time we met him he was very drunk and the next time we went to go meet with him we'd brought an older sister from the ward with us to go visit with him and he brought like seven friends. So it was the two missionaries a little abuelita little grandma and these seven young guys and as we Continued to teach him. Like he was just he was learning so much and we taught English classes. And he would come to the English classes, and it was funny because the only English that he knew was Rolling Stones lyrics. But he was determined to learn English. And as we continued to meet with him and talk to him more about the gospel, we would invite him to pray. And he would say, Ermana, he's like, I am I am not worthy to pray. I have done too many horrible things. And he he's like, I don't want to tell you what they are, but I've done horrible things and I'm not worthy to pray. And somehow we finally helped him recognize that God was his heavenly father. And as a father, he wants to hear from his children. And I don't think I will ever forget. We got home from a busy day in the mission field and listened to our answer machine. And it was his name was Tiberio. And he's like, Hermanus, I prayed. I finally prayed. And I felt loved. And that meant so much to me, that idea that he could finally get in touch with that idea of his divine identity and his divine potential as well. So for you, what do those kind of small acts of dignity, whether that's helping people find more housing opportunities, or I'm thinking about like in the coming home meetings where we help these women, we are able to work with St. Vincent de Paul in order to get them access to things that they may need. How do those just small little acts of dignity and helping them feel seen change their trajectory?

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Well, one of the things that comes to mind is in the research that I did for my dissertation, I interviewed drug court participants and all of them, every single one, and in exactly the same words, said the judge treated me like a human being, not just a criminal. And the judge's side of that coin would be in terms of I discovered these people were just um, I don't know, they use the term human beings, but they were just people. You know, they they weren't, they weren't only criminals. They were people. And um I think those small acts reinforced from both the recipient and the giver this person-to-person, human-to-human touch. And I I think I know one of our recovery community centers does a Thanksgiving dinner. And one of the legislators from that area came to the Thanksgiving dinner and served and brought, I think, two or three of his kids. Um, seeing people as people and being able to laugh together at a joke. I mean, the things that um, and I would see that often in court, how the judge and the participant would laugh together at whatever the situation was. I worked with a judge and we would often see each other at conferences, and he would be giving a presentation. And he would, he would give a presentation, he would talk about the graduate of his who came back a couple of years after she had graduated and and asked to see him, and he's he saw her. And she said, Judge, I have a favor to ask of you. I said, Well, you know, if I can. She said, Well, I'm going to be married. And he would then turn to the audience and he would say, What do you think she asked me? And we would all say, Well, to perform the ceremony. And he would have a look on his face. He would say, No. She asked me to walk her down the aisle. And she said to me, You're the closest thing to a father I ever had. Now, this would be a woman who it would take, it would take some real effort to teach her to pray to a heavenly father because she had no father. Certainly, there are many people who had fathers who would not be a prototype of a loving, caring father. And those are also people that as we teach them to understand a loving heavenly father, we have have more work to do. But for her to ask him to walk her down the aisle, that kind of captures that there was a connection of being treated like a human being, so much so as to be able to come back two years later and have confidence in that relationship, that he would even talk to her, that she could even get in to see him. Because judges are not all that easy to get in to see. But so that human connection. When we give something to someone that is simple, it may be a set of dishes, it may be a set of sheets. I remember, you know, sometimes at the thrift store, you'll see sheets that are still packaged. Being able to contribute that, that is a human-to-human recognition of our human needs and our, I would say, recognizing our privilege of being able to give to someone. So that I think that's a part of it. Our coming home meetings where we bring together all kinds of people that are are willing to help women who are returning from incarceration, many times who often have no idea just how little they are going to come home to and how much they have to overcome. Knowing that going back, going back means, as someone often would describe it, three hots and a cot. But there is a place. There is a place where they have belonged. And and our job is to give them in the community a sense of belonging. And sometimes in the church, a feeling of belonging. And that that's a very human need. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

I loved what you said about recognizing the privilege of the opportunity to give. And being able to take a step back and think about that of, you know, I have this I think of King Benjamin, right? And the idea of are we not all beggars and the opportunity to give others what you what you're able to give. Um Brene Brown has said, people are hard to hate close up. So move in. And I think that's really something that you've inspired me to do through through the meetings and such that we've we've gone to. But what advice would you have for someone who's listening as far as a way that when things are so busy and we have so many things coming at us right now, what is a good way to be able to slow down, move in, and see those who are probably overlooked?

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Boy, you know, it's hard. There aren't all that many obvious, easy opportunities. I remember uh a sister in in one of our one of the wards I was in, uh, she says, I whenever someone approaches me, uh, and we don't have a lot of of that happening on the streets of Boise. But if they approach me and they asked for money. But, you know, when we go to the grocery store, we often drive out past someone standing on the corner uh asking for money. She said, I always, I always get if I have some, I always give it to them. And, you know, people will, even, even in that setting, would say, Oh, well, you should give, you shouldn't give them money. They'll just go get alcohol with it or whatever. Or, you know, you know, they make a lot of money doing that. You should shouldn't do that. She said, Yes, I I know all of that. I know all of that. But I would much rather I choose to give to the one who really needs it, as opposed to to denying the one who really needs it because I think I'm seeing the one who does it. And so I'd rather give to someone who needs it than to refuse. And because I, you know, I don't know their story. That isn't so much a a recommendation to stop next time you see somebody with a sign, but you know, finding a way, just serve, you know, the the the voluntary organization. Um, you know, there there are so many volunteer opportunities in the community. And people can volunteer for even a short stint where you come in contact, um, finding ways to actually have a conversation with someone. But it's hard. I, you know, um, it's hard without some kind of organized effort like that to really find that person and make that contact. I have some colleagues over in Ido Falls, and they are having, they rented an event center and they're inviting a lot of people from the community, and it's going to be about stories, and the stories will be individuals from the local um work release center or the re-entry center. And they're individuals who are going to tell their story, and we need to find more opportunities to do that, to tell those stories and to connect people. But you know, it's it's not easy to find that opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Yeah, I remember a few years ago pre-COVID, I'd taken my kids and we went and volunteered at a place that was doing a Thanksgiving meal for for veterans, actually. Yeah. And my my kids were pretty young, and we went and we just went and sat down at a table. And there was a woman who was there. She was pretty young, probably in her early 30s. And we were asking her, you know, what's on your, you know, Black Friday Christmas list? And she said, I think there's gonna be a big sale on socks, and I really need some socks. And it just kind of was a great teaching moment as a parent after the fact to talk to my kids about, you know, you you've got your Christmas list. Some people, their Christmas list, the thing they're really excited about is getting some socks because of their current circumstance.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Yeah, yeah. And with kids, you know, how how how do you share those? And you know, you you it it's it's the kind of story that makes national news when some child decides to somehow raise money for the homeless or for for some social, I mean, lemonade stand or whatever it is that they've decided to, and it's such an unusual event that it, you know, makes the national news how we help our children to have those experiences, how we help each other to have those experiences. And I'm really pleased to see a number of the people in our our church kind of reaching out to this young woman. I don't know what other kinds of assistance may have been given, but just to to hear people's stories.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Yeah. So you mentioned just serve. Are there other places you would recommend people look online to find out, either within here in Idaho places to look or to discover more about the work that you do, whether here or far away?

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Boy, the food bank. I think the food bank is always looking for volunteers. St. Vincent de Paul, Salvation Army, the Boise Rescue Mission. I was trying to think of online, but there's just CERB, but there's also, I think that CERB Idaho might be a spot that lists um, you know, volunteer efforts. Um there's an organization called, what is it? Hand, I think it's hand to hand. And it is a um a volunteer organization that does kind of like Big Sisters, only it's for adults, and it's sort of a mentoring program.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Awesome. And I'll I'll link all of those down in the show notes so people will be able to find them. That would be great. Yeah. Um, that would be great. Yeah. And then, Nora, thank you for being here. I appreciate you being here. I've got one last question for you. And that is that the purpose of Pebbles of Light podcast is to celebrate those relationships that have helped to brighten our path and in turn help us to light the paths of others. Could you share about one or two people who place a pebble of light in your path when you need it most and how it would help change your path?

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Yeah, I've been I've been thinking about that. Um, you know, who who are those people? One person was actually a friend of mine, my mother's, and she had been, I I met her uh and and interacted with her when I was very first starting out as in social work. And she had been a social worker for years and uh, you know, and it gave me advice, gave me really good advice, which I didn't adhere to as closely as I could have, which was keep your case files up to date. Don't put it on. Um but so certainly her, she was someone many of the judges that I've interacted with in various capacities, because they often were people who had done this work for many, many years and still were as excited about it as when they started. And so sharing that excitement and um was was really kind of lighting the path that there is something here that is worthwhile. An individual that came and did did a training that I went to, and he was really the person that introduced me to the reality that working in the drug and alcohol field was a very evidence-based, research-supported, theoretically rich area of work. It it um it was more than, although Alcoholics Anonymous is an incredible organization for people, but it was more than than that alone. And so he certainly scattered some pebbles of light. And um, you know, as you know, when we talked about this endeavor, this interview, we talked about pebbles of light. I told you about visiting um, now I'm blocking on the name, the town that was covered up by Mount Vesuvius, Pompeii, visiting Pompeii, and the Roman pavement of the roads included little chips of white stones that would reflect the ambient starlight and moonlight so that people would see where the road was at night. And and that that whole idea of the those pebbles of light. Well, those pebbles of light are not that light doesn't come from within those pebbles. It is reflected. And so the pebbles of light really are those reflections of people all around us, people who treat us as valued colleagues, people who treat us as sources of inspiration, people who treat us as helpers, people who treat us as children of divine parents. Those things reflected on those pebbles of light are how we see our way. And we become one of those sources of light to be reflected to others.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Thanks again for taking time, Norma. I really appreciate it. Thank you. As we reflect on this conversation with Norma, there's a quiet invitation to look a little closer, to see the people whose stories we may not yet understand. Her work reminds us that dignity and worth aren't something we earn, they're something we recognize in each other. What stays with me from this conversation is how much can change when someone feels seen. Not fixed, not judged, just seen. These moments may feel small, but they carry more weight than we realize. The pebble for this episode is to notice one everyday moment this week where you can offer dignity, whether through a conversation, a gesture, or simply your attention. You can learn more about Norma and find helpful links in the show notes, along with ways to support the podcast through Buzz Sprout. Thank you again for being part of this community. Thank you for tuning in. My hope is that something helped you feel seen, encouraged, or inspired to bring light to someone else. If a name or moment stood out, don't let it pass. Reach out, express gratitude, or take that next step. You can connect with me anytime on socials at Pebbles of Light or at anMaxon.com. If this episode was meaningful for you, please follow the show, rate or review, and share it with someone who might need a lift today. And if you want to go a step farther, you can support the show on Patreon. See you next time.